posted 05-06-2003 11:37 PM         

This is a LONG post. If you are serious about knowing the statistical reality about current VWs and have 5 minutes to spare, please read on. If you want to flame me for A) not bashing VW sufficently or B) not understanding how "awesome" these cars are, well don't bother. I welcome discussion, debate, etc.

LEMONS

FACT: About one in one thousand VWs and Audis are certified for lemon claims. VW sold 338,000 vehicles in the US in 2002. Odds are, 338 of them will end up in a lemon claim.

Several state government post exhaustive reports on their web sites about lemon law claims. I have read 2001 annual reports for New York, Hawaii and Texas and a 10 year report for New Jersey (1989-1999)

Here are some real numbers

In New Jersey, from 1989-1998 one in every 993 VWs/Audis registered had a comlaint serious to be heard as a lemon case.
This compares to one in every 1,037 Fords, one in 1,406 for GM.
Toyota/Lexus (oh aren't they wonderful!) had a ten year lemon rate of 1 per 4,911, while Chrysler sucked big time at 1 in 392 registrations.

With 2.7% of the market, VW/Audi has 3% of the lemons

Turning just to 2001, things are a bit different:

In Texas in 2001 VWs held 1.3% of the total vehicle market (cars, trucks, Winnebagos, etc). Yet they produced 2.97% of all lemon complaints and resulted in 6% of all buy backs or vehicle replacements.

In New York state VWs/Audis represented just 1% of lemon cases, or 3 of 298, and 1.6% of all buybacks and replacements since 1987. Similar figures apply in Florida & Hawaii.

Here in Canada we don't have lemon laws, but consumers can go through the Canadian Automotive Vehicle Arbitration Program (CAMVAP) for a similar type of recourse against bad vehicles. In 2001 VWs represented 2.2% of complaints and 2.4% of awards, with one buyback for all of Canada.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? My reading of the data suggests that VWs become certified lemon cases at just slightly higher than their indicence in the market place. They do way better than Chrysler, a bit worse than GM, and WAY worse than Honda, Toyota and Subaru.

CONCLUSION: VW = FORD

CHRONIC RELIABILITY PROBLEMS

Besides certified lemons, people on this site complain of many different things going wrong on the same car, making a lemon case impossible and a migraine inevitable.

THE FACTS

In a recent, confidential survey of Canadian automobile dealers, VW dealers gave their product the lowest relaibility rating of all vehicles

Looking at the NHSTA complaints database there are 184 complaints on file for the 2002 Jetta and a whopping 296 (!!!) for the 2002 Passat. Compare this to 175 for the 2002 Ford Focus, 34 for the 2002 Corolla, and only 37 for the oft-maligned Hyundai Elantra.

Over on the VWvortex, which contrary to accepted wisdom here, actually does have some thinking members who are not blnded by VW dazzle, the complants threads go on and on (sorry, this is more anectdotal evidence than stats) - transmission problems, MAF failures, electrical gremlins, stuff falling off, etc. About once a week there is a dedicated VW owner posting "I've had enough, I'm bailing" and many people are actually warned not to buy VWs because of the reliability issue.

Reliability ratings have been downgraded at Consumers Reports, and the latest JD Power initial quality figures put VW 10 points below the industry average.

Yet remarkably, 90% of Canadian VW/Audi owners say , they would purchase the same vehicle again.

CONCLUSION: I think Mr. Up-the-River knows more about cars than I do, and while he may get a bit cranky about how ALL VWs are now a POS, he has a point. The facts show - these cars break down way more than average- heck they break down as much as Fords

RESALE VALUE

I was interested in seeing what kind of a hit people are taking when unloading these beautiful losers, so I looked at resale prices in Toronto and Chicago (love that Auto Trader eh?) Here's a comparison of

a) Jetta GLS, 2.0 manual
b) Toyota Corolla CE (the mythical reasle value champ)
c) Ford Taurus SE (the chump?)

These are typical prices, offered at major dealers. I'll do US first, then Canada. The percentage figure in brackets is the cost of the used car as a percentage of MRSP for a 2003 model

CHICAGO

Jetta GLS
1996 - $6,000 (32%)
1998 - $8,500 (45%)
2000 - $14,000 (74%)
2003 - $18,800 (MRSP)

Toyota Corolla
1996 - $6,000 (39%)
1998 - $8,000 (53%)
2000 - $10,000 (66%)
2003 - $15,200 (MRSP)

Ford Taurus
1996 - $4,500 (22%)
1998 - $6,000 (29%)
2000 - $10,000 (50%)
2003 - $20,700 (MRSP)

TORONTO (Canadian dollar = 71 cents US)

Jetta GLS
1996 - $9,000 (38%)
1998 - $12,000 (50%)
2000 - $17,500 (73%)
2003 - $24,000 (MRSP)

Toyota Corolla
1996 - $9,000 (45%)
1998 - $11,500 (58%)
2000 - $16,000 (80%)
2003 - $20,000 (MRSP)

Ford Taurus
1996 - $6,000 (23%)
1998 - $8,000 (30%)
2000 - $14,000 (53%)
2003 - $26,600 (MRSP)

WHAT DOES IT MEAN: Unless the sky falls (and you guys actually get a class action suit going) you can expect to be able to unload your Jetta for about a 7 or 8% worse depreciation hit than if you owned a Corolla, AND it will hold its value better than a Taurus (ok, no big achievement there).

CONCLUSION: Thank GOD that VW does not = FORD

DEALER NETWORK & VW CORPORATE

I previously mentioned the Canadian auto dealers survey, where VW dealers essentially tore a strip off of VW Father-Corp. Well, evidence about dealer quality and service is anectdotal at best, but her is what I have seen here and in many many posts on the vortex

1. A TON of people really, really hate their dealers. There is a lack of product knowledge, arrogance, and an inability to properly fix cars.

2. The dealers hate VW. VWoA is more arrogant than the dealers, and will not go any distance at all to make things right.

3. Some people have good dealer stories to tell. It seems in the larger urban centres the good dealers get known and people have a choice

CONCLUSIONS: If you live in a rural area, think long and hard about buying a VW. Keep thinking about it while you write check for that Civic or Sunfire, then think about some more when your Civic keeps running.

If you live in the big city and you have to have a VW (hey, I do, and I did, and I don't yet regret it) sign up for the Vortex and log on to your regional board. There is a very bad signal to noise ratio on the Tex, but if you ask for dealer recommendations in your area, you WILL get them. You will be able to meet people who have bought from that dealership and will give you the straight goods on their sales & service.

NOW I AM DONE: WHITHER THE VW???

What I have learned from this exercise is

A) these cars are only sometimes as bad as myvwlemon would have you believe, but when they are bad, they are really, really bad.

B) VW corporate and huge chunks of the VW dealer network in North America is rotten, rotten to the core.

C) People bought into VW thinking they were a cool little company with fun "quirky" cars when in fact they are a monsterously huge and farily shabby corporation

D) VW = Ford (not Yugo, with respect to our departed friend). All in all that is not the worst thing in the world.

E) Everybody on this site bought a VW, so they must have something going for them

If people pursue their lemon claims I sincerely wish you the best luck. If a large group of people pursue a class action suit, well I wish you luck on that too, even though you will $crew my resale value.

I will check back on this post, but I think it's bye bye for this site for me for awhile.

posted 05-07-2003 07:23 AM         

BUT all those stat's on lemons are for REPORTED and/or ACCEPTED LEMONS. There is no mention of cases where a guy gets his VR6's transmission replaced 3 times in 18k miles, or the poor sap that is told by the dealer that all cars need a new AC compressor at 24500 miles, or the fact that the rear break pads are designed to last 10 miles longer than the B to B warranty, which doesn't even cover them, making folks return to the dealer for a second-rate brake job at twice the market value.

Did you find any stat's on days out of service?

Where does, the former butt of auto jokes, Hyundai rank in quality? I do know JD Poweres has them tied w/Honda for initial quality. That is quite well, since my Jetta had about $1000 in warranty claims and 4 days out of service in the first month & 1000 miles!

posted 05-07-2003 01:08 PM         

I do not trust any of the numbers. I listen to the owners, and even the most ardent VW owner admits that the cars could be better the dealers, again for the most part, are rotten.

posted 05-07-2003 04:05 PM         

these numbers do look interesting and yes they don't include everyone who has problems with their cars, but absolute lemon cases.

interesting as i was looking at some of the data that subaru, mazda - even volvo, were amongst VW if not had more problems than VW. yes, VW isn't ranked no. 1 or 2 or even in the top 10, but if you look it's right in the middle. which isn't a bad thing to say.

what i would like to know is what is Skeptikal's overall conclusion to his findings. what would he like for us to walk away with after seeing his impressive study of facts.

i know that there aren't 338 people here on myvwlemon that are complaining about 2003 models. i don't think that there are 338 people per model year on this site to even come close to the odds figure of 1 lemon per 1000 in VW.

posted 12-23-2005 09:28 PM         

Does this say 1995 and up?

Why 5-7 years for a recall?

How are you ever going to fix the hard items if the easy ones take this long?

posted 12-26-2005 05:04 PM         

B.) Wish you had purchased my Jetta new instead. First owner warranty stinks also.

C.) Very glad you found this website....that means "it" is working.

2000 Volkswagen Jetta GLS L4-1984cc 2.0L SOHC (AEG) 5 speed 4 door $20,500 new in September 1999

Here is the history to date. 113k (September 99 to November 05)

Over $12,000 in repairs. Terrible! (Repair bills almost equal the car payments)

Air conditioning leak (after 1 week)
Rear defroster has two strands that don’t work (after 3 months)
Cloth Front Floor Mats ripped out (3 times)
Replaced cheap cloth mats with heavy duty VW rubber mats (no problem with the $120 rubber mats) Hope it wasn’t “we give you cheap ones that tear out ….but we could sell you the good ones for $120.”
Check engine light came on (4 times)
(2nd time engine light came on VW Dealership told me it would cost $100 to “scope”)
Rear brake pads wore out at 40k (front pads showed no wear?)
Rear rotors “scored and replaced” by premature pad failure. Poor brake “proportioning”
Gear shift knob loose. Still loose after first attempt. Second attempt fixed it.
2.0 litre engine burning oil (1 quart every 1,000 miles) Yellowish white “goop” inside valve cover and oil filler cap. (later went on to burn only 1 quart every 2,000 miles)
2.0 litre engine cylinder walls deglazed and new rings installed (didn’t work)

Informed that 1 quart every 2k is “normal”. First VWOA rep. said the oil burning was normal. One year later, second VWOA rep. (different district) said these cars had defective rings. Which one do you believe?

VW Mass Air Flow sensor recall

Interior armrest soft rubbery coating (cosmetics) poor “clean ability” Can’t clean the dirt smudges and the finger nail scrapes/gouges are impossible to remove.

Glove box “right side” hinge broke (3 times) Still broken.
Replaced Clutch (should /could go to 150k….replaced at 93k)
Seat belt recall from VW
Plastic undercarriage splash pan broke off (3 times) finally just removed.
Only one heated mirror works
Mirror glass are beginning to “brown up” on bottom edge. Cheap silvering?
Crayon smell and greasy black build-up on internal fender seams
Brake light pedal switch recall from VW
Numerous calls to the VW #800 line (No help)
Replaced Coolant flange on engine (told these are known to break)
Sunroof broke
Young VWOA rep. taught me how to “read” an oil dipstick.
Armrest release pull broke (cheap plastic hinge)
Warranty extension from VW on oxygen sensors
Replaced spark plug wires
Replaced battery
Drivers Seat squeaks. Seatbelt receiver rubs the side of the seat.
“Mystery” rear window (Comes down 6 inches on its own when it wants to)
Replaced engine vacuum hoses
Letter to Dealership, they get VWOA involved, both “combined” offer “no help”
Front of plastic cup holder “falls off”
Front windows crashed down inside of door (4 times)
2.0 litre engine (now) burning 1 quart every 2,000 miles (over 45 quarts in 93k)
2.0 litre engine completely replaced
Water pump replaced
Temperature gauge sensor replaced (silent VW recall item)
Received Mass Air Flow sensor “warranty extension” from VW
Car wouldn’t pass State inspection (replaced 2 oxygen sensors $360)
Received window regulator litigation notice
Loud “explosion” (Like a 410 shotgun) in cabin while driving at 55mph on smooth 4 lane highway. Airbag went off? Or was it the seat spring letting loose?
Drivers seat spring shearing off (height adjuster)
When it is 32 degrees or colder the door lock makes no “beep” sound
Dash light failure (works “Ok” for 2 weeks and then “Off” for 2 weeks)
Intermittent trunk light. Some times it works. Sometime it doesn’t.
Compensated by VW for oxygen sensors
Replace rear brake pads. 93k (second time)
Replace front pads. 93k (first time)
Every other night the clock stops (resets to 12:00) and the odometer resets to 0.0 (even with new battery)
Glove box light remains on when lights are turned on.
Turn signals intermitting remain “solid on”
4 way flashers occasionally remain “solid on”
Roof Antenna rotted off. Completely disintegrated by UV.

Plus the other expected normal repairs…….

Planning to get rid of this car, because now that it is getting older we can expect everything to start breaking.

Hard on gas. (MPG)
Mid 20’s is terrible for a small engine (2.0 litre 5 speed) and a “small” car. Should/could be in the low 30’s.

Hard on brakes.
40k on rear brake pads is terrible! Our 99 Honda Prelude has 80k original OEM brake pads and will need them soon. Bad proportioning, rear wear out at 40k and fronts get replaced at 93k? Where else in the industry do you see these proportions? Does NHTSA know? Is it poor design or a braking defect?

Hard on rubber
(60k tires only go 45k) Original set went to 45k. Second set went to 93k. And now we have the third set on. 3 sets 93k. Our 99 Honda Prelude went 80k with original tires.

Over 20 trips to the dealership in 48 months.

There have been 74 stinking Technical Service Bulletins issued on this vehicle.
There have been only 5 stinking recalls and 3 warranty extensions.

posted 12-26-2005 09:55 PM         

quote:

---

Many thanks to those who posted REAL! instructions about how to do it and a GIGANTIC finger salute to those who LIED about how difficult it was.

---

You better be pointing that finger at your buddies at VWoA that wrote the verbiage in the owner’s manual instructing owners to visit the dealer for bulb replacements!

posted 09-21-2006 06:51 PM         

In addition, I’ve yet to run into any problems...knock on wood. My family comes from long loyal VW buyers. Everyone has just about owned or received one has a hand-me down. The man I am dating has always hated VWs since his whole life is body work on cars and always said VWs are not good. Well, sure enough he drove mine and I took him down to Autobarn dealership and he was in heaven. He traded in his beat up Honda for a brand new Jetta GLI.

posted 09-21-2006 07:12 PM         

Me, yes, I still have 3 or 4 VW/Audis at any given time.

Yes, we all know all manf's have their problems. VW makes some good cars. VW makes some bad cars. Toyota makes some good cars. Toyota make some bad cars. BUT, VW makes more bad cars than Toyota. Toyota addresses problems faster. Toyota also treats their customers better, overall. (Toyota was used for the sake of argument. Feel free to substitute Honda, Subaru, Nissan, etc...)

I to was in a wreck with a VW. A drunk T-boned me doing about 40-45 MPH in a 1986 Quantum. Car held up much better than his 1979 Malibu wagon. We even got out, chased the looser down and jumped on him until the cops arrived. It is no big secret that VWs crash well...the TUV is much harder to pass than the DOT.

In contrast, when my 2001 Jetta was getting it's new transmission, turbo, GP wiring harness, and MAF (all warranty), the service writer wanted to buy my 1993 Honda Accord I kept at the dealer for convienance!